People who have been following my comments know that I am often questioning the wisdom of surgery in patients who don’t fit the usual criteria for resection, which is most commonly pursued in stage I and II NSCLC and is often considered an option for some patients with stage IIIA NSCLC. To provide a very quick review of NSCLC staging, it’s a combination of three factors:
1) Tumor (T) stage — from 1 to 4, going from smallest and easiest to remove to hardest or largest to remove
2) Node (N) stage — from 0 to 3, going from none to further distances from the main tumor
3) Metastasis (M) stage — just a 0 or 1, to reflect whether there has been distant spread outside of the tumor’s lobe of origin
Here is the more detailed staging system, for T stage on one figure, and then for N and M stage in the other.
(Click on image to enlarge)
At the bottom of the second figure are the “Stage Groupings” that define our current (although increasingly refined over time) staging system. You can see that stage, which correlates with prognosis overall, is a product of a combination of how advanced the tumor itself is and measures of likelihood of distant spread, which is nodal stage (correlates with increasing risk of micrometastatic disease and distant spread) and M stage (M1 defining metastatic spread).
A key point is that there are related but distinct risks from a lung cancer. While we are generally most worried about distant spread of SCLC, which is why surgery has no established place in SCLC management, NSCLC can have very differing degrees of local or distant risk. We need to weigh these, potentially also along with the third variable of risk in the brain, as we develop treatment plans:
The point is that some patients have higher risk of local recurrence and lower risk of distant recurrence, while other patients have a much higher risk of distant recurrence than local disease. For instance, stage IIIA NSCLC includes T3 N1 disease, as well as T1 or T2 or T3 tumor stage with N2 nodal stage. But the person with T3 N1 disease has a considerably lower risk of distant recurrence than someone with N2 disease. And the patient with stage II NSCLC because of T3 N0 disease has a lower risk of distant disease than other stage II patients with N1 nodes involved. Higher T stage predicts greater risk of local/regional recurrence, while higher N stage predicts higher risk of micrometastases and distant recurrence.
This relates to a question I had from a member today who read a news report about increasing success in performing surgery and achieving favorable long-term results in patients with T4 tumors, as described by Dr. Dartevelle at the meeting of the Society of Thoracic Surgeons. Dr. Dartevelle is a French thoracic surgeon who has been doing pioneering work in redefining what is feasible surgically, a name that I’ve mentioned before in my introduction to Pancoast tumors (post here) because he pioneered some of the surgical work that has improved our care for these patients (as in, the “Dartevelle approach” for that surgery). While the definitions of T3 vs. T4 had historically emerged to distinguish what was locally advanced but possible to remove surgically (chest wall, mediastinal pleura, diaphragm) from what was not felt to be removable (heart, major blood vessels, esophagus, spine, etc.), surgical advances are now changing the definitions of what is possible to resect successfully.
In fact, although I am wary about unhelpful surgeries being done in patients who can’t benefit from them, I have helped care for a few patients who illustrate the value of “pushing the envelope” surgically. One case, from several years ago, was a 56 year old woman who came all the way from Hawaii with a left-sided Pancoast tumor that was invading into her 2nd and 3rd ribs and also her 2nd and third thoracic vertebrae:
Now, this woman had NSCLC proven on biopsy, but her mediastinoscopy was negative. So like many patients with a Pancoast tumor, she had a tumor that would generally be considered unresectable, but we felt that her cancer was much more of a threat locally than distantly.
She was treated with pre-operative chemo (cisplatin/etoposide) and radiation (to a “pre-surgical” dose of 45 Gray), to which she had a good response but the appearance of likely residual disease. She then underwent a remarkably complex, long surgery that was done by an excellent thoracic surgeon in tandem with an orthopedic surgeon who had studied in France with the same group that has been pioneering these techniques. This is NOT something that should be undertaken by people who don’t have the experience for it, but the surgeons worked together to remove the tumor, the left upper lobe, and the 2nd and 3rd thoracic vertebrae and ribs on the left. This was followed by an extensive reconstruction. Here’s what her x-ray looked like after her surgery:
Three years later, she has no evidence of recurrence, she has no evidence of recurrence and is living her life. She just has some explaining to do when going through airport security.
What I wanted to highlight was that a very aggressive approach that includes surgery for what would technically be considered T4, unresectable NSCLC was a storng consideration here because her stage was determined much more by local issues than risk of distant disease. In addition, we had a team that included world class thoracic and orthopedic surgeons, including one who had trained with the exceptional group in France that is still moving the field forward (this isn’t being done by the surgeon who did an appendectomy this morning and a gall bladder yesterday). They are overcoming some of the technical limitations, but it really makes sense to apply this when the risk of distant disease is limited, not for patients with a history of a malignant pleural effusion or a couple of bone metastases, who have a much, much higher likelihood of developing distant recurrence later.
But there are a few amazing success stories out there thanks to the impressive progress from some very dedicated thoracic surgeons.
posted by Dr. West @ 11:11 pm link to this post










February 7th, 2008 at 11:19 am
Hi Dr. West I’m a stage 3B patient who had my RUL removed a little over one year ago. I feel great physically but live in constant fear of recurrence. I had a 1.6cm tumor and a 9mm satellite nodule that wad discovered by the pathologist - CT/PET did not detect satellite nodule. So I’m a T4N0M0 (which I did not see on posted chart) my question is do you think I’m at greater risk for a local or a distant recurrence. My second question, in general, do you see more recurrences in the first, second or third year after surgery. Thank you so much for all you do!
February 7th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
Colleen,
Very often, those satellite lesions in the same lobe are adeno/bronchioloalveolar carcinoma (BAC) lesions, and satellite lesions in the same lobe portend a potential for multifocal disease in the lungs — BAC tends to grow in the lungs, often slowly, and not often spread outside the lungs.
Your situation isn’t the same as something growing into a vertebral body and nowhere else, but it’s still a favorable prognosis. In fact, the new revision of the staging system will have satellite lesions in the same lobe as a lower stage than IIIB, since we now recognize that the survival tracks more favorably, more like a stage II cancer.
The general rule is that the risk is highest in the first year and decreases over time. Average and more aggressive cancers are definitely at highest risk in the first two years, so much so that if they haven’t recurred by two years, they generally won’t. But lower grade tumors (well differentiated, low SUV on PET) such as BAC continue to have a very real risk of recurrence for many years.
-Dr. West
March 29th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Hi,
Thank you for allowing me to visit and learn from this site. My husband is 69 and in generally good health. He went to a pulmonary dr. in January 2008 for recurrent bronchial problems, and a CT scan revealed a tumor in left lung upper lobe. He was referred to a thoracic surgeon. It was explained to us that the procedure to remove the tumor would go like this: a cut would be made below his neck to check to see if his lymph nodes were involved; if so, there would be no surgery to remove the tumor. It was discovered that his thyroid was so large (another story) that it was impossible to do that, so the surgeon proceeded to remove the upper lobe. The tumor had wrapped around a heart valve which was repaired and the pathology report showed it had spread to the lymph nodes and chest wall and there were tumors on the lining of his lung. It was characterized as Stage IV. After he was able, he began a regime of taxol and carboplatin chemo treatments. He’s had two so far. After the second one, we went to another oncologist because the first one would not order a PET scan. Tests showed that it had not spread to his adrenal glands nor liver. He then had a PET scan which the present dr. said did not show anything. In the meantime, he has had a terrible time with coughing/wheezing which we think might be his enlarged thyroid–the dr. described it as “impressive,” and has grown to below his collarbone. It was biopsied and determined benign. He was put on a small dose of synthroid to attempt to shrink it, but he is still coughing, and we finally convinced the oncologist we want to see a surgeon to explore whether the thyroid (goiter) is pressing on his airways. We don’t have that appointment yet, but we will insist on it to be soon. He has had little reaction to the chemo treatment. The oncologist said the surgery timing would depend on my husband’s blood count. He told us that although the PET scan didn’t show anything, the cancer could present itself again in 2 months-2 years. My question is–does all this seem typical, and why do we feel like we should know more about his prognosis. Also, will he be in danger to have surgery (I’ve read where you shouldn’t even have dental work while taking chemo)? Thank you.
March 29th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
I failed to mention that the exploratory to check his lymph nodes was aborted because of his goiter causing breathing difficulties; that’s when the surgeon decided to go on with the lung surgery. Also the tumor was 3cm and the pathology report classifed it as adenocarcinoma.
March 29th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
It’s unusual but certainly possible to have a small tumor burden with advanced NSCLC and then a complete response. There’s nothing typical about the situation, but really everyone is so different that many if not most patients aren’t “typical”.
Both from the standpoint of having such a modest tumor burden to start with, and having no evidence of disease after chemo, you’d expect to have a better prognosis than the typical numbers for advanced lung cancer. Still, if cancer was present in the lining of the lungs, I agree that it is appropriately classified as advanced, and it would generally be treated with systemic (whole body) therapy. It’s also just not known when it might become evident again.
It would definitely be appropriate to hold on surgery for at least 3-4 weeks after chemo, enough time for blood counts to recover. This is especially the case for an elective, non-emergent surgery, when you can have the luxury of scheduling in advance.
I haven’t encountered a case in hich a large goiter was causing such symptoms. However, I suppose it could well be the source for his cough if large enough.
-Dr. West
March 30th, 2008 at 10:25 am
Thank you so very much.